Faith Freedom?

www.faithfreedom.org houses some very one-eyed discussions, but sometimes it is also home to intelligent and perceptive commenters lyrically waxing the nature and merits of organised religion in a world where secularity and agnosticism are equally present, at least in Western societies. The site chiefly encourages the apostasy of Muslims through debate. That means most threads are love-ins for self-congratulatory and sometimes very paranoid anti-Islam crowds.

I signed up and used the "elseedy" moniker, which is the name of a music collective we had in London, but on this site sounds like an Arabic surname (it's not very common). I wanted to
humanise and balance some of the more vicious threads going on, with interesting effects. I also wanted to discuss general theology of a more final nature.


Below are various statements without surrounding thready context made by the seedy me from different threads during Autumn 2007 (the dholl seeds are a store, see):


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On the inherent intention of conflict from every Muslim:

You may influence the thinking of a Muslim if he (or she) is naturally a compassionate and open person. For example I was discussing the murder of the dutch playwrite, Theo van Gogh, and my friend (arab, life-long and devoted Muslim to the point where he freely admits Islam comes first, family second) pointed to a picture of the poor man's prone and very dead body with a knife sticking out his chest and proclaimed:


"I respect the man who did this."


I believe this was an automatic response from him. After much passionate debate from both where we reminded each other that Islam means peace and such hysterical reactions are gross signs of weakness he eventually conceded and changed his mind to say that the murder of van Gogh was wrong.

Although still very much against any form of Islam-baiting my friend at least has shown me signs that there are ways to debate intelligently with Muslims. I think from the Muslim-end should come many concessions to:


Peace, Humanity, Love, Understanding, Forgiveness, Education, Maturity


when discussing and reacting to such difficult issues like the van Gogh incident or the Muhammad caricatures from Denmark.

Yet...yet who am I to know for sure he really did change his mind?


see wiki for the van Gogh story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29


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On Halal food:

Dönerläden and the like are everywhere, even in smaller German cities. The average person (like me) would rather eat out at local German eateries but does not have this choice as they are either closed for the day, have old and over-priced foods or are closed forever. Instead s/he eats at the Turkish or Arabic late-nighters and actually thinks the food is okay, good value and convenient.

Similar story with the food markets. I would like to support the German growers but their tomatoes are soggy and wrinkly, cucumbers are leaking water and the apples are bruised. The Turks however, are combining fresh goods with competitive pricing...

Capitalism at its mightiest! Oh, the irony!!


I'm thinking of doing some research actually. Where the produce from the Turkish and Arabic family stands comes from. Mayhap they come from local German farms anyway.


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On fighting the Muslim threat by invoking the figure of 3000 dead from 9/11:


Okay, fine. So what about the unknown 5- or 6-figure death toll in Iraq since the USA-led invasion?

I think most victims (about 99%) were muslim. Hopefully that was not for nothing either.


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On aggressive passages from the book of Islam, the Qur'an:


...what are you so afraid of? I live in Berlin where almost 10% of the population are Muslim. I lived in London for many years that had similar numbers. I would prefer it if the muslim communities wanted to integrate more but it's only been a couple of generations. I think time will heal most problems.

I only wish that there were more stable non-muslim family units with lots of babies as this invasion of Islam of which you speak may turn out to be sort of true, simply due to strength of their family units and having plenty children.

Additionally, one of the most important features of what I would call my culture (West-European) is the secularism of its state(s)...this, of course (contrary to what most Muslims would want) should remain.


I don't believe there is a cunning masterplan from Islam to invade Europe...the logistics alone are too complicated (a book, some mosques and an ideology is not enough).

You need to ask the question: why did the first-generationers move from their Islamic country of birth to a progressive and free(-ish) non-Islamic nation?

The answer is generally economical rather than anything sinister.

I have not personally experienced any fight from Muslims pertaining to those quotes from your last post. One could probably make a case that the London attacks from July 2005, orchestrated by British Muslims, were inspired by such translations but if there was a proper all-Muslim Jihad then there would be absolute anarchy.


I can only hazard that those quotes came from a time of war...it would be interesting to hear a Muslim's response to todays' validity of them:


- "Trust in God if the enemy wants peace"...meaning to agree with the peace. Or slay the enemy if the enemy wants war.


That sounds reasonable enough.


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On making the Islam faith illegal in Western societies:


I think we should ban evil murdering nutcases...but I don't know how. I don't think banning the Qur'an will help much.


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On criticism of my use of rough statistics:


...intending only a rough figure to make a point rather than using cold statistics to back up an argument.


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On Islam and Christianity being the same, except run by different people:


Some boths include:


Both have a book which guides/regulates/governs them, detailing among others:

- the literal 6-day (with the 7th as a rest day) creation of our planet.

- Adam and Eve are the literal parents of everybody.

- the Noah's Ark and Abraham legends.


- Both have violently defended their faiths.

- Both have proven their inflexibility, ignorance and discrimination in countless historical examples.

- Both have claimed the attempt to instill basic humanity-based morals into which most good people live by.

- Both have wars to their name. Or rather both were used to cover up wars for land, power and control issues.


I can plainly see the logic in Intelligent Design Theory. I can just as clearly understand the Chaos Theory. The designer creates then leaves for Chaos to govern.

I cannot believe in an organised religion when there are dozens of Christian/Catholic off-shoots, when there are some Muslims who drink alcohol and others who do not, when there is also Hinduism, Buddhism, rabid atheism and god-knows what else. When there are questionable rules and contradictory morals.

They can't all be right. How can Islam be the correct one if it shares its history with its supposed rival? How can Christianity be correct when some reverends preach that Jesus is God himself and others say that that is fallacy, he was actually the son? Not-to-mention the Jewish angle.

I support Everton FC, you may support Liverpool FC. We accept both clubs are real - as long as they have supporters. Just let's not fight about it. My bible is my city-map. It says that if I keep cycling this way then so-and-so street will come up...and it does!

As for nit-picking differences between the Bible and the Qur'an, it is people who write these books and run these religions - people are different. That we know.


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On the assumption that I am a Muslim poster because I seek balanced debate:


I'm a fence-sitting agnostic who responds best when confronted by mindless copycat statements like the one below:


Cassandra wrote:

"You don't have to follow a barbaric evil deity created by a psychopathic pedophile."


Try and approach the subject openly or you risk sounding like most Muslims do when one tries to explain that Muhammad caricatures do not warrant burning down of embassies.


I only think that to have one side say:

"Islam, Allah, Muhammad, Muslim all mean peace."


and another side say:

"Allah is a barbaric evil deity created by a psychopathic pedophile"


requires some middle-ground argument.


This forum is lacking more sober thinking into why a 1400 years old religion has endured and bloomed to a billion people. The atrocities of this world have been caused by all kinds of peoples for all kinds of ideologies...Islam simply can't be the most evil one of all.

I can understand some of your stance. Certainly ignorance and brainwashing has played its part on mass scales but one could say the same for Christendom, especially before the 19th century.

Perhaps Islam is morally and intellectually a century behind the secular world? Doesn't mean it's evil.

Turkey's EU situation is a very interesting one, and one that could be key to how Islam develops this next 100 years. How do you feel about Muslim countries run by secular government...as the West have for most of the last century? Most Arabic people do not want this but I feel they can adapt if such changes happen.

I feel that the danger is religion in government, not spirituality in people. Keep Islam in people but lose it from government. I don't think Turkey has "denied" Islam, it has perhaps adapted its influence on the state...which is a step in the right direction for the free world.


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On why I champion the middle-ground:


The middle ground I am already living consists of going out with friends, (some of which are muslim) and playing football, drinking beer (some drinking alcohol-free beer), eating halal döner together, helping each other, talking with each other, talking theology - and sometimes is disagreeing but understanding why.

None of them have tried to behead me yet.

So you blind stupid Islam-bashers should stop copying opinion from other media and start realising that there is already a middle-ground, especially in the big European cities. And that you can mix Islamic faith with agnostic friends.

Yes, there are extremists who want Islam to take over the world and kill all who refuse. Yes, Muhammad has a probably unclean history. No, we should not wipe out Christianity just because the odd priest rapes children.

No, we should not wipe out Islam just because the odd nutter murders civilians.


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Preaching to the stupid:


Wrong. Taking selective translations from the Koran to make this case is just lazy. What you need to understand is that if these people are happy with their relationship with Islam and Allah, then that is all that is important...there are no victims.


ixolite wrote:
"Btw, the "middle-ground" in european cities is for a woman the reality of being molested in the "islamic" areas of the city."


This is a general problem. In comparison with other major cities I think Berlin is quite safe for young single women to freely walk about at any hour. And we're not just talking safe from Muslims (from supposed "Islamic areas") but relatively safe from any other nasty rapist.


ixolite wrote:
"How anyone with a sane brain can support animal cruelty by eating this stuff (halal) is beyond me."


Animals are killed for us to eat. How this is done is generally determined by concepts of religion, perceived animal-fairness or economy. We either eat dead animals or we don't. A vegan telling me "Yuk!" I can empathise with but a fellow carnivore?


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elseedy defends Islam against the bashers:


Who are you all to say who is a good muslim and a bad one? You all have no idea and pick and choose your 'sources' to best suit an opinion against Islam.

Yes, the Islamqa site preaches absolute rigid nonsense that has no place in the modern world. No, that is not a reason to wipe out Islam simply because not every Muslim (by far) adheres to such rigidness.

In London and Berlin such rules as stated on this Islamqa site are broken all the time. The Muslims who break these rules aren't performing some kind of mysterious trick to fool us westerners. They are rather adapting their religion to suit their lifestyles. Take female doctors as one example. If this makes them a "bad Muslim" in the eyes of stiff Sheikhs or through targeted bashing then it probably makes them a "good Muslim" in their own view, their family's and in their own interpretation of Islam.

For the record I am a white European agnostic who believes that any literal adherence to holy books and beliefs in divinity is childish at best...can be dangerous too. I am also a fair man who does not like to see gangs of bullies bashing something to death for little good reason other than fear or greed.

Some examples of real bullying throughout history, of which Islam is barely a perpetrator:


- The Crusades

- The almost-complete wiping out of Native Americas tribes

- Slavery (from all over the world)

- The Holocaust

- Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

- USA's constant 'strategic' bombing of Iraq in between the two Gulf/Iraq wars

- This website and its contributors raving madly against Islam and its 1 billion followers


There are many good articles and discussions on this site but when it comes to straight Islam-bashing it loses its seriousness and becomes a dumb free-for-all. Even some comments from Muslims themselves have generally been dumb ripostes which haven't helped the discussions to become serious debate.


So, in conclusion: Do not believe that a Muslim who integrates genuinely with non-Islam society is a "bad Muslim". Do not believe that a Muslim who wishes harm to all non-Muslims is a good Muslim and thus, Islam should be destroyed.

For if you do believe this, then you may start major conflicts that aren't even there in the first place. Conflicts which the author of Islamqa probably also wants.

There are always two sides to every debate. That is why there must be a middle-ground which fairly represents the subject.

From the elseedy: book of wisdom 19:247-249:

"Look not to ancient scriptures of instruction, for you must adapt in this life."

"Do not call the haters stupid, it is enough only for you to know this."

(I broke a rule...this is good)

"Simply ensure there are no victims as a result of your actions or ignorance...this is enough."


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The Universe disproves a present God?


I believe so and have often asked believers of their opinion of why we are God's special people when the Universe is so massive etc.

With our present level of knowledge and technology we won't even be able to explore beyond our own galaxy before the universe supposedly implodes upon itself (tho' the speed of light will probably be cracked in the future).

There must have been some kind of design at some very distant beginning - has the design been left to randomly evolve with almost infinite variables? Does this mean that we, the human race, and our wonderful planet were not planned at all but rather happened as a result of a chain of random events? If so, then nobody apart from us knows we're here.

Believers have given strange answers to these sort of questions: "Space is difficult to negotiate because God wants us to stay in our planet. Trust in Him" is probably the most popular one.

I say the universe disproves a "present God" as I can't make sense of designing such an unfathomably massive creation and plonking a chosen people on such a minuscule dot, reassuring them to believe and worship and bla.

I believe the designer (be it a force, entity or chaos) comes from the before- and afterlife and is somehow related to our consciousness. This is why the human has the urge to seek spirituality, which built the man-made religions.

I would be interested to hear thoughts on this.

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Where are all the solipsists?


I've known 3 of them myself...but maybe that's just a trick I created.

One of my friends has been a solipsist for 20 years...it took him almost half that time to finally accept it.

He tells me that he didn't begin to fully enjoy life until he started to "play the game". He since finds people much more wonderful and interesting.

I wonder if we all go through this moment of enlightenment but most of us at such an early age as not to remember it. Or perhaps some have a short and wicked flash of solipsism before dismissing it on grounds of its ridiculousness forever.


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Some shorter observations:


We are all one...that means we come from the same thing in the Before and go back to it in the After. There won't be a Me, You or Them...it will just be Us...in one.

I don't know how I know, I just know.

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"angstheist" - I know some of those too. It should have a Wiki entry.

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Why is it that when I read your posts I hear the voice of Stewie Griffin reciting them?

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The IRA (The Irish Republican Army) killed people and scared a whole kingdom for decades before being negotiated out of business so please stop your bloodthirsts and think about how to deal with this problem in an adult way.


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WHHOOO-HOOOOO!!!

ROUND OF APPLAUSE FOR THE CRAZY HATER, YEAH!!! LET'S KICK THEIR ASSES, GOD BLESS blah, blah, blah


Jesus weeps as he reads your post, Starburst...you sorry lost soul you.

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What a load of rubbish...what on earth are you saying here? This whole debate has gone as silly as the original post.

Let's kill it.-